Designing Dresden 6 – So, why Fate?
So, I’m a nerd.
Not a huge shock, but I figure I’m going to lay that one right out there to frame the question of “why use Fate, and not some other system?” because it’s easy to assume that the decision to go with fate was based purely on the fact that we wrote it. In fact, while there’s some truth to that, it’s not necessarily for the obvious reasons.
So, right off the bat, there are a lot of great systems out there that, if you want to run Dresden, you can totally do it with. To be perfectly frank, Eden’s “Witchcraft” game, especially tweaked with some of the Cinematic Unisystem changes from the Buffy & Angel RPGs, is about an 80-90% fit right out the door. Eden is a great company, and I mostly regret that Witchcraft supplements don’t come out frequently enough. If I just wanted to run a game this evening, rather than write something, it’s probably what I would use. However, there are three real downsides to it. First, it is almost harder to do a 10-20% tweak than it is to build from whole cloth, because dependencies are a pain. This is not purely limited to game design – there are very few fields where the last mile is not the hardest. Second, Unisystem is Eden’s system, and they have no licensing scheme for it that I know of. Now, they’re cool guys, and we probably could have called them up and said “Hey, we have this property, can we pay you some money to make it Unisystem?” and maybe negotiated something, but that’s an uncertainty and a definite hurdle. The final problem is the most substantial. Until recently, Eden held the licenses for the Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel RPGs. Obviously, these are two properties with a lot of overlap with the Jim Butcher fanbase, but as far as these things go, they are 800 pound gorillas, and with Unisystem, we would be consciously stepping into their shadow, which would simply not be a smart thing for us to do.
Now, the new World of Darkness system has similar licensing concerns, but even more pronounced because, were I White Wolf, I would tell us to take a flying leap if we asked. Why? Because the World of Darkness has its own cosmology, and much of its success is on the _strength_ of that cosmology. Something like Dresden could only dilute that strength. By the same token, we’d suffer from that sort of dynamic, so no go.
Those are the two that are the big fish for the thematic match, but from a business perspective, why not go with a D&D or d20/OGL based game? There’s a compelling case to be made for it – even though the market is flooded with d20 products, the good products still sell, and are more likely to get penetration into places that sell a limited selection. Now, that’s double-edged. The d20 glut has also meant many retailers are cutting their d20 orders down to the bone, but there are some business reasons to go with it.
What’s more, there’s a compelling argument of familiarity. D&D is still the biggest RPG there is, by a substantial margin, and don’t we want the game to reach that audience?
Now, the cool kid thing to do here would be to give a little sneering smirk and dismiss d20 with a wave, but that would reflect on my ignorance more than anything else. Yes, there are some terrible D&D and D20 products out there, but there are also some really smart, talented people who are making very _good_ products. I can easily argue against using D&D (it’s a bad match) or d20 Modern (It’s a bit too structured) but when you get to some of the real gems of d20, like Green Ronin’s True20 or Levi Kornelsen’s Perfect 20, it’s very clear that there are d20 builds that -could- work.
Which puts them in the same category as the other generic games.
Gurps. Hero. Tri Stat. D6. Risus. Name your favorite and put it here. And here’s where the true challenge begins because, to be perfectly frank, I could build a pretty darn good Dresden game out of any of these.
Now, some are easy to dump. Hero, Gurps and tri-stat all have owners that complicate things. Tri Stat has a reasonable licensing schema, but the system is strongly associated with anime, and that’s a problem from a marketing perspective. D6 and Risus would be more of a matter of filling the serial numbers off, and that would be both insulting and tacky, so we’re not going to do that. True20′s pretty good, but the license is expensive, so no thank you. It is under OGL though, so you can use the rules as long as you don’t call it True20, so that’s got some merit.
Considering these obstacles, we really want to avoid licensing headaches, so we want something under an open license, like the OGL or Creative Commons. The number available is growing, but practically speaking the options really come down to Fudge, Fate or a d20 OGL akin to Blue Rose/True20.*
Now, if we’re doing Fudge, we’re gonna do Fate, simple as that. We made that decision long ago, and we’ll stick by it. But Fate vs True20? Tough call. We know Fate better and can definitely tune it better. True20 has more potential market penetration. Both games are undoubtedly _capable_ of handling Dresden, so what to do?
In the end, it comes down to the Batman/Superman dilemma.
If you are playing a game that stats up characters in an even faintly logical fashion, Superman has at least an order of magnitude more “points” than Batman. They’re incredibly mismatched. On paper, they’re Angel Summoner & BMX Bandit. Yet side by side in the comics, they rock.
This issue is pretty important for the Dresden Files. Harry is a lot more powerful than Murphy or Billy, so how do you handle that issue? If the answer is “Harry is higher level” then you’ve just described a game I don’t want to play, because that more or less implies that the lower level characters are mostly there for color, not because they’re needed or are meaningful contributors. Ideally, I want something that distributes importance in a manner more akin to a novel or comic book.
And here’s where the rubber hits the road. Fate does that. D20 games don’t (nor are they supposed to, for anyone who thinks that’s a criticism of d20 – it’s not).
We want to make sure that when the group consists of the fae halfblood daughter of Jenny Greenteeth, the lover of a Muse, a Kung Fu wizard, the Autumn Knight and a pizza delivery guy, that everyone gets to be awesome.
So to do that, were going with Fate. It’s not the only game that this is possible in, but for our purposes, it’s the best match.
* Clinton Nixon’s Solar System, which powers The Shadow of Yesterday, gets short shrift here, for reasons that would take too long to go into, but I leave it at this: It’s an AWESOME game, it just wasn’t the game we needed.
Hi,
Best wishes for the New Year and thanks for this update.
In your survey last year I proposed Cinematic Unisystem for Dresden and I’m glad to hear mine wasn’t a bad choice; only not a practical one. Good luck with the further developement of the Dresden Rpg!
Cheers,
Marc
Best wishes for this new year, and as a geek I’m hoping that this year will show the release of this game. I’m looking forward to seeing what you’ve done with Butcher’s great world of Dresden.
Best wishes -
Blake
Greetings, and a happy Dresden year.
While I’ve been playing in a cinematic Unisystem campaign for the past two years and it has been a great experience, it is mostly a tribute to a great narrator, good friends and my best character ever (much easier to roleplay than the previous contender for the title).
Let’s be honest, the Unisystem fails on so many levels it takes a lot of work to stomach it: luck is more important than ability or skill, damage is bland, character balance is a complete miss (and I’m not talking White Hat / Hero).
Plus, there are no in-game rewards at all for playing to the genre tropes.
I could go on for a long time, but no matter: Unisystem is not the point, except to say I’m quite glad you did not go with it.
The point is, those in my group who looked at FATE are all enamoured of Aspects, to the point of sometimes adding them in other systems.
Once we tried them, it proved impossible to go back to a standard advantages and flaws mechanism.
Unless you have found a new and greater enlightenment, please do not let go of them.
By the way, the only reason I got interested in the Dresden Files in the first place was FATE, and even with a few of the books under my belt, it is why I will buy your game.
I do not need a sourcebook to Harry of the many names, but I need another interpretation of FATE3 to help me hack my own variant again: even where I had pushed FATE2 in the same direction as you did for Spirit, your way was so much cleaner than mine that I would be a fool to not wait for the masters’ update.
Please know FATE has changed the way some of us see RPG systems.
Thank you, and best wishes for the new year.
PS: you might find interesting to know that our Buffy director has decided to give FATE a try, with a possibility of dropping the Unisystem.
love to see new info up on the dresden game, i do have one concern though. From what I know about Sotc, one of your previous products, its very pick up friendly, but handles character advancement almost as an afterthought. What I like in a game is it’s lastability ( is that a word?) through a long term campaign, is Dresden going to handle advancement as the “intended” style of play?
josh
Yes; Dresden will definitely, explicitly address advancement as an expected mode of play.
Actually, the main reason batman and superman can team up in comic books is because power levels are based entirely upon who’s writing the characters. Either they just lose/gain abilites, or there’s just something really contrived to try to balance the power level. “Oh no! We need to pull these two levers, but they’re made out of kryptonite!”
Besides, the answer why Harry is more powerful could also be “Harry is a different class (or spent his points differently)”, “Harry’s the main character, so things go his way”, or “Harry has weighted dice” or even “Yeah, but Harry can’t use a computer, fly on a plane, or drive a modern car.”
I guess what I’m trying to say is I don’t want the system to force people to play in the same power level. If Jimmy the pizza boy is just as good as Tim the Sorcerer, what’s the point of spending years learning magic? If any average Joe off the street has the same usefulness as the autumn knight, why do the Fey bother investing their knights with power, since apparently it doesn’t make a difference?
With all due respect, handling Superman and Batman that way is how really crappy writers handle it, not the only way it can be handled, and I will cheerily bust out the entire Morrison run of JLA to back that statement up.
The issue is not one of power in the traditional sense, but what might be considered story power or screen time. This is not achieved by giving the characters equal power, nor is it achieved by setting up contrived situations where the lamer character gets to shine. It’s achieved by beginning from the premise that you can tell interesting stories with both characters, and that the difference in power levels is secondary to that.
In short, Jimmy the pizza guy is going to be as interesting and fun to play as Tim the Sorcerer. That is not going to be everyone’s bag, but we’re willing to live with that burden.
I guess it pays to read the site a bit more before you post an opinion. I guess my assertion regarding the use of Hero System puts me on a similar page with the great minds here.
A few questions though.
1) How is the metagame going to reflect the difference between the books vs the TV series?
2) How far along in the book continuity will the initial content bet set?
Skeptikos:
1) There is no metagame, so the answer is “it won’t.” Metagame bad! Players actually owning the world at the point they start the game, good! What you’re really asking is whether or not the RPG will be based on the books or the TV series, and the answer is, the books.
2) It runs up through White Night.
“I guess what I’m trying to say is I don’t want the system to force people to play in the same power level.”
The thing to remember is, not everyone has to have magical ability to be on the same power level. Sure, Harry is a powerful wizard, but people treat him differently. Murphy, on the other hand, may only be a cop but she has the contacts, respect and trappings that come with the job. You might run into a bit of trouble when playing the aforementioed pizza-guy, but that tends to come with the territory. On the otherhand, perhaps he’s the only one in the team with easy access to acne medication.
As for other systems, Crafty Games have just released their first supplement concerning magic for Spycraft 2.0, so people over there are getting into the Dresden groove too.
Don’t underestimate the pizza guy – if he’s managed to hook up with Toot-toot and co, he might have quite the following!
Which just goes to show that an unconventional concept can take you quite a way if you look at it in the right way.
I’m really looking forward to DF, and I enjoy the FATE system, but I do wonder how many people will buy DF and play it as written and how many will buy it to convert it into another system. And if they do convert, which system(s) will they likely use? And rather than having lots of people convert on their own, why not satisfy the market and publish in a more well-known game system?
Well known? Spirit of the Century, a Fate-based game, has been ranked first place RPG over on RPG.net. It’s *known*.
Well, Kenny, do not forget some people will also get the Dresden Files to get the next iteration of FATE, or at least because of FATE.
I know I am one, and I would have bought nearly any universe from Evil Hat on trust in their previous work. I actually began reading the Dresden books because it interested them, and after both FATE2fe and Spirit, I would tend to trust their taste.
This could shape up to be interesting… I’m liking the look of the FATE/SotC stuff I’ve had a glance at recently, and I like the sound of the books too. Once I’ve read some of ‘em I’ll probably be even more interested
I was reading about this over at Eden Studios’ boards.
A couple of things.
1. Eden does allow for licensing of Unisystem, http://edenstudios.net/unisystem/. But you make some other good points about going with FATE.
2. I will probably convert it to Unisystem myself. FATE is interesting and all, but I had some success in converting FUDGE to Unisystem and since Unisystem is my game of choice�well you get the idea.
In ANY case, I am very excited to see this game and will be sure to pick up a copy!
What a cool property to get made into an RPG.
Tim
Side question: Is Eden still coming out with new stuff? I want my Eden fix!
Murphy note: She sort of has the respect. I’ve read the 2nd, 4th, and 6th in the series (had to do with what the bookstores had at the time), but, as far as I can tell from blurbs on something later, Murphy’s still and always in a precarious position. However much respect she has, it can always be taken away in the twinkling of an eye. Not that this is a bad thing from a gaming perspective.
As long as the essence of the characters are upheld you can’t go wrong. A wizzard should be more powerful than the pizza guy. The pizza guy HAS certain advantages (see Hollow49′s post), but should not be as powerful as a WIZZARD. Anyone who wants to play the pizza guy knows what they’re getting into. If you want one dimensional illogical but “fair” characters, D&D awaits, but the Dresden world is designed with excellent character advantages and drawbacks all ready built in. Just stay true.
I will probably convert it to the World of Darkness rule set. I prefer the new WoD for modern mystic games.
My biggest problem with rpgs lately hasn’t been with the systems used though. It has been with the price.
I don’t feel that most rpg’s give you a decent return for the money you spend on them. Thirty or more dollars for a book is a bit much. May books now cost upwards of forty or more dollars.
I will buy a game that costs less before I will buy a game that costs more. If the cost of the game can stay under the thirty dollar mark I will buy it as soon as it comes out. Otherwise it will have to wait for awhile.
Has anyone thought about making a paperback version of a game that would sell for ten dollars or so? It wouldn’t need artwork outside of the cover. Darksword Adventures was a paperback rpg book. I think the Dresden Files would make a great paperback rpg book.
Hope this game will be worth it.
$10 would barely begin to cover the cost of printing such a book, Richard.
Richard, for whatever is worth, over the years, I invested about 1000 dls. into WoD books. I can say I really milked the 40 or so I spent on the Vampire book . The rest, well, lets just say I could have smoked my money away to the same effect.
On the other hand, Spirit of the Century (the only other FATE based game out there) costs 35$ and for that amount I’ve been having more than enough for an entire year of gaming. So I’m planing of gladly paying whatever’s the hardcover price on this one. And then probably I’ll be adapting the NWoD to this set of rules. It is just that good. And well worth the price tag.
Has anyone looked at the system that the rpg Unknown Armies (Atlas Games) utilizes? I especially like how the system does character creation and combat. I think this would be another fine alternative system to use.
Im going to have to pick the game up. But ill be converting my game to usisystem also.
@Ren� L�pez
I’m planning to do the same myself. I’ve already included Aspects in my Mage the Awakening chronicle, so I guess it’s just a matter of time before we moved completely into FATE.
Also, I have Starblazer Adventures and just the corebook gives you tons of new systems, rules and story ideas worth years of gaming(I know it’s not an Evil Hat product, however it keeps the high standards that FATE-based games have so far), so these books really worth every dollar.
“We want to make sure that when the group consists of the fae halfblood daughter of Jenny Greenteeth, the lover of a Muse, a Kung Fu wizard, the Autumn Knight and a pizza delivery guy, that everyone gets to be awesome.”
Mr. Pizza Delivery Guy is not just a pizza delivery guy he is THE pizza delivery guy who all others are just a pale shadow. He can drive across Los Angeles in 5 minutes flat. Sororities still hold candlelight vigils in the hope he will be the one that delivers their pizzas again. Irksome pets quiver in either fear or fawn all over him. His car? Dingless.
Yes, it’s a little over the top, but he isn’t just a normal guy. If you want to play a normal pizza delivery guy, slice a few layers off their skills or they get two to four phases during character generation. Now, why would someone want to play such a character…